Comments Welcome On This 1892 2/6

[NRP 38]

Quote from the coin's proud owner, over on PCGS forum:

It's been interesting posting this coin on a few world forums -- all of the Brits question the toning. I think they are so unaccustomed to seeing toning, that they have not developed an eye for the tell-tale signs of AT

Which I find breathtaking in its naivety.

It's very amusing this comment because i know certain individuals who buy top quality coins that have been cleaned or polished, they then use their own "secret recipe" to tone these coins - you should see the results they are astonishing!! These coins regularly end up slabbed with very high grades attributed to them and lets just say I have seen these coins slabbed by every coin grading company including one in England ;-) the toning is so good it would fool anyone unless you had seen them regularly!!! Therefore this American collector has probably actually bought some of these artificially toned coins and seems he is very happy with them ;-)

[Nick 329]

Quote from the coin's proud owner, over on PCGS forum:

It's been interesting posting this coin on a few world forums -- all of the Brits question the toning. I think they are so unaccustomed to seeing toning, that they have not developed an eye for the tell-tale signs of AT

Which I find breathtaking in its naivety.

It's very amusing this comment because i know certain individuals who buy top quality coins that have been cleaned or polished, they then use their own "secret recipe" to tone these coins - you should see the results they are astonishing!! These coins regularly end up slabbed with very high grades attributed to them and lets just say I have seen these coins slabbed by every coin grading company including one in England ;-) the toning is so good it would fool anyone unless you had seen them regularly!!! Therefore this American collector has probably actually bought some of these artificially toned coins and seems he is very happy with them ;-)

Can you point us at an example, Neil?

Edited October 17, 2013 by Nick

[NRP 38]

Hi Nick, obviously I could open up a can of worms with this one but will look for an example I can post without upsetting anyone!!

[Nick 329]

Hi Nick, obviously I could open up a can of worms with this one but will look for an example I can post without upsetting anyone!!

Thanks. That would be great.

[azda 979]

So the guy in question who owned the coin has linked this thread to the one over there. So to him i'd ask the same question. Why is it that the ugly toning ONLY seems to happen when Americans have the coins? Why is it they are SO defensive when some people say the toning is artificial?

Why is the slab number SO important, you collect a coin not a slab? I can pick up a few slabs, Throw a number on it and sell you it if it so pleases you. The other question i have is directed at another poster who commented that the slab number was low and he reckoned it should have been a point more, errrr can you or he explain how you differentiate between a +1 -1 point, what are those huge Tell Tale signs that the point should have been added or subtracted. Honestly, some of you American collectors are so f**** anal its unreal, i'd have hated to be the dog in the house that day when it came back 1 point under graded.

Then other thing i'd also point out is that an expert in British coins gave you an appraisal of AU and you were'nt a happy collector, you people have a LOT of learning to do.

Rant over, put your Blinker back on and the Crash helmets, sign up here and join a real debate about your artificially toned coin

Edited October 17, 2013 by azda

[jaggy 528]

I live in America. My coins tone normally.

[Peter 615]

Neil

I can't recall seeing any AT/rainbow(call it what you like) coins in your catalogues/online site/auctions ETC.

I would love to see a before and after "special recipe".

We are all well aware of some of the low ball cleaners in the UK collecting fraternity (they do catch a few newbies)

Although I'm not aware of any Rainbow coin sellers.

I would love Coin News to pick up on this.

[Peter 615]

I live in America. My coins tone normally.

[Sword 1,473]

Without naming names/posters, the one with a Scotish nomen (okay, Mac- something or other) seems to back this coin up and reference a toning table that is ludicrous - it is a blatant attept to rationalise toning IMO....

I have read the article and found the first sentence, "Nobody knows toning better than XXX" conceited and arrogant. Can't understand how anyone would even want to make such a claim.

I think his theory of toning is this: A layer of thin silver sulphide forms on the coin. Normally silver sulphide is black, but appears transparent when thin enough and lets light through. Light hits the coin and some light is reflected on the top of the silver sulpide layer. Part of the light continue to the coin itself and is reflected by the silver. White light consist of a spectrum of colour from red to blue. The light reflected from the two surfaces interferes destructively and some wavelengths (colours) are lost. If you lose the red colour, you have the remaining colours of the white light left and so the coin looks blue.

The colors you lose depend on the thickness of the silver sulphide layer. When the layer is very thin, the blue light is lost and the coin appears red (L on his table). As the layer gets thicker, you will eventually lose the red light (X on his table). When the layer gets thick enough, the silver sulphide is no longer transparent and coin would look black.

This interference effect explains why copper turns rainbow colour when you heat it in a flame. A thin and invisible layer of oxide is being formed. In everyday life this effect is seen on oil films on puddles of water.

He then mentioned that "Note that artifically toned coins can still obey the standard progression, and there are also some naturally toned coins that do not. This can happen if there are unusual contaminants present during storage, perhaps such as chlorine, or excess sulfur. Such coins may fit our generally accepted notions of natural toning, while still exhibiting some unusual colors. But the vast majority of toned silver coins will conform to the standard progression."

I found the last sentence highly unconvincing. How can he possibly make the claim about the "vast majority of toned silver coins".

What do I think of his theory? Seeing how complex toning can be, I just don't believe you can pretend that such a simple theory can adequately explain it. But I can believe that the effect might play a part in explaining why some naturally toned coins are iridescent. A coin can react with large numbers of substances e.g. on fingers, wallets, etc etc. which will surely affect its eventual tone. Such things are trapped presumably easier on the edges of coins due to the letterings and I would normally expect the toning to be darker at the edges. This is one of the reasons why I don't believe the toning on that halfcrown to be natural. The bright yellow and patches also don't look natural to me.

I guess AT is recipies are the result of trial and error with chemicals. The colours might even be due to metal ions other than silver (e.g. dip in coloured metal solutions, rinse and leave for a few months? Exposing coins to fumes?)

I am just sitting on my sofa, thinking about this from a theoretical point of view. I think experience is just more important than theories when it comes to toning. Ultimately, people will believe what they want to believe.

[NRP 38]

Neil

I can't recall seeing any AT/rainbow(call it what you like) coins in your catalogues/online site/auctions ETC.

I would love to see a before and after "special recipe".

We are all well aware of some of the low ball cleaners in the UK collecting fraternity (they do catch a few newbies)

Although I'm not aware of any Rainbow coin sellers.

I would love Coin News to pick up on this.

Peter no I don't sell them I just know certain individuals that do it and then put them for spanning then to auction!!! In all fairness they look very good and if you didn't know and never know it wouldn't matter but because I do know I avoid them, as I said I have to be careful but if I can find an example I will post it!! Incidentally it's so good that most dealers would sell them without knowing

[Coppers 58]

Quote from the coin's proud owner, over on PCGS forum:

It's been interesting posting this coin on a few world forums -- all of the Brits question the toning. I think they are so unaccustomed to seeing toning, that they have not developed an eye for the tell-tale signs of AT

Which I find breathtaking in its naivety.

It's very amusing this comment because i know certain individuals who buy top quality coins that have been cleaned or polished, they then use their own "secret recipe" to tone these coins - you should see the results they are astonishing!! These coins regularly end up slabbed with very high grades attributed to them and lets just say I have seen these coins slabbed by every coin grading company including one in England ;-) the toning is so good it would fool anyone unless you had seen them regularly!!! Therefore this American collector has probably actually bought some of these artificially toned coins and seems he is very happy with them ;-)

If you should ever decide to post such information on the PCGS forum, I can't imagine what the reaction would be..then again maybe I can.

[rpeddie 119]

maybe our logicall british way of thinking just cannot comprehend how amazing and non AT the american coins can look given the right storage climate...............

wonderful rainbow poop

+ his others they are all magnificent specimens that deserve a museum

[VickySilver 830]

Don't forget the seller "greattoning"!

[Rob 3,152]

maybe our logicall british way of thinking just cannot comprehend how amazing and non AT the american coins can look given the right storage climate...............

wonderful rainbow poop

+ his others they are all magnificent specimens that deserve a museum

With 42 examples of 'Rare rainbow patina' listed out of 70 listings in total, one might question the use of the word 'rare'. The atmosphere in Finland looks as if it is dodgy too - still, at least the EU's environment police can get a handle on that one.

The only good thing to come out of all this AT madness is the preference for doctoring modern coins to achieve a level of toning that few would ever reach in a 100 years. The huge mint outputs mean that a shortage of an individual type is unlikely to result, whilst those that wish to waste money on a tacky fairground trinket are also catered for. With business expanded and more people catered for, the market is working folks.

[bagerap 706]

First time this has been out of its case in 40 years but it is developing a purplish "tone"

Or tarnish, as I call it.

[jaggy 528]

This is an 1887 Half Crown I bought in May 1990 from Glendinnings. There is a little bit of gold in the toning but none of that rainbow you see in the subject of this thread.

[Gary D 76]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gt-Britain-1935-Crown-Rare-Amazing-Gem-Multicolor-Superb-Grade-Gorgeous-/151147291512?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item233114a378

[Peckris 579]

This is an 1887 Half Crown I bought in May 1990 from Glendinnings. There is a little bit of gold in the toning but none of that rainbow you see in the subject of this thread.

That looks absolutely typical natural silver toning.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gt-Britain-1935-Crown-Rare-Amazing-Gem-Multicolor-Superb-Grade-Gorgeous-/151147291512?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item233114a378

For God's sake Gary - couldn't you have issued us with sunglasses before posting that?

[Peter 615]

That crown surely sums up this thread.

The historical auction catalogues are full of this type of crap....aren't they?

[Accumulator 52]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gt-Britain-1935-Crown-Rare-Amazing-Gem-Multicolor-Superb-Grade-Gorgeous-/151147291512?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item233114a378

Just appalling.

[DaveG38 405]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gt-Britain-1935-Crown-Rare-Amazing-Gem-Multicolor-Superb-Grade-Gorgeous-/151147291512?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item233114a378

Just appalling.

I wonder if anybody has made a study of the dates and denominations which are toned in this way. Given that they are for the most part artificially toned, it seems to me to make sense to only tone relatively common, but high grade coins, so that any problems with the process won't result in a significant financial loss. In this way profits can be maximised without too great a risk. If this is the case, then again it lends substance to the argument that rainbow toning is an artificial process. Otherwise both common and rare coins would show this feature. Thus if RT was natural, I'd expect there to be a 1934 crown with it out there, but somehow I'm betting there isn't.

Similarly, has anybody seen a RT coin with significant wear? After all, if the toning occurs naturally and a worn coin was taken out of circulation say 100 years ago, it should by now show rainbow toning. I accept that in circulation, you wouldn't expect it, but once this is no longer the case, a coin should tone according to the environment it's in. That should lead to some RT coins in fine condition, yet, I dont think i've ever seen one - please correct me if I'm wrong. Even if I accept the argument that collectors only want high grade examples and that such collectors store their coins in particular conditions that lead to RT occurring, I'd still expect to see some lower grade examples, if only where gaps are filled, due to the rarity of the date. Of course, if RT is artificial, then the reason for this is obvious - there's little price mark up on a worn coin.

[Accumulator 52]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gt-Britain-1935-Crown-Rare-Amazing-Gem-Multicolor-Superb-Grade-Gorgeous-/151147291512?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item233114a378

Just appalling.

I wonder if anybody has made a study of the dates and denominations which are toned in this way. Given that they are for the most part artificially toned, it seems to me to make sense to only tone relatively common, but high grade coins, so that any problems with the process won't result in a significant financial loss. In this way profits can be maximised without too great a risk. If this is the case, then again it lends substance to the argument that rainbow toning is an artificial process. Otherwise both common and rare coins would show this feature. Thus if RT was natural, I'd expect there to be a 1934 crown with it out there, but somehow I'm betting there isn't.

Similarly, has anybody seen a RT coin with significant wear? After all, if the toning occurs naturally and a worn coin was taken out of circulation say 100 years ago, it should by now show rainbow toning. I accept that in circulation, you wouldn't expect it, but once this is no longer the case, a coin should tone according to the environment it's in. That should lead to some RT coins in fine condition, yet, I dont think i've ever seen one - please correct me if I'm wrong. Even if I accept the argument that collectors only want high grade examples and that such collectors store their coins in particular conditions that lead to RT occurring, I'd still expect to see some lower grade examples, if only where gaps are filled, due to the rarity of the date. Of course, if RT is artificial, then the reason for this is obvious - there's little price mark up on a worn coin.

Perfect logic Dave, and I think we all know the answer to how many RT 1934 crowns are out there!

[jaggy 528]

Someone has bid $37,500 on this:

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1190&lotNo=33334&ctrack=2795324&type=featured1-coin-1190-open-tem102313

[Paulus 1,975]

Someone has bid $37,500 on this:

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1190&lotNo=33334&ctrack=2795324&type=featured1-coin-1190-open-tem102313

What a case in point, to me there is significant wear all over the place! Is it just blinded (including for the TPGs) by the toning??

[Colin G. 147]

Someone has bid $37,500 on this:

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1190&lotNo=33334&ctrack=2795324&type=featured1-coin-1190-open-tem102313

Oh dear