1917 London Sovereign In Upcoming London Coin Auctions December Sale -

[Hastur 0]

I measured it and 22.05 mm also fits perfectly in a sovereign scale. Weight is 7.99 grs

The color is not the same as a regular sov imo

Not asking if it is a fake, just providing another fake sample. Could this one be one of those made in beirut? All fakes I've seen fail the weight and sovereign scale test, but not this one.

[VickySilver 831]

Yes, that is my measurement as well. It is also difficult to make out the area of possible mintmark. Remember that reproductions if they are from a "ordinary" coin will have this tendency to be just that little bit larger. I am not an expert in counterfeits by any stretch but will note that it is my recall that centrifugal casting can give a failry good result which can then come off rather nicely with surfacing/buffing/prepping....That would be one example.

I have gradually come to the opinion for what it's worth that coins such as the 1905 halfcrown and the 1917 London sov. must be proven as authentic rather than the opposite and be proven as faux.

As far as the latter specimen, I think it would fit at least some of the qualifications for Beirut manufacture but difficult to condemn on pictures alone.

Edited October 31, 2013 by VickySilver

[Hastur 0]

I got this one at spot gold price so no worries just wonder what type of fake is it....... Do these have any numismatic value while being fakes other than spot gold price?

I think it is a good fake and not that easy to spot. If anyone feels closer details are usefull for the discussion I will try to take better pics.

[Coinery 1,156]

If anyone feels closer details are usefull for the discussion I will try to take better pics.

That would be most appreciated Hastur!

[Peckris 579]

I got this one at spot gold price so no worries just wonder what type of fake is it....... Do these have any numismatic value while being fakes other than spot gold price?

I think it is a good fake and not that easy to spot. If anyone feels closer details are usefull for the discussion I will try to take better pics.

Good question. "Genuine reproductions" of major rarities tend to have a market of their own, but fakes of - e.g. a 1933 penny where a genuine penny has had the date expertly altered - fetch 3 figures on eBay.

[Colin88 54]

Its just so wrong and has so many suspect elements identified.

Stephen really has to withdraw it from this sale until proven unequivocally kosher.

[Coinery 1,156]

Its just so wrong and has so many suspect elements identified.

Stephen really has to withdraw it from this sale until proven unequivocally kosher.

You have to wonder why they haven't chucked it in a slab?

[VickySilver 831]

Ha ha! Yea, right. They aren't that dumb, that would shoot credibility at CGS.

[Rob 3,152]

Which begs the question for anyone who has access to the CGS statistics - how many 1905 HC, 1917 sov, 1864 die? forins, 1763 1/-, etc have been slabbed? i.e.the known dodgy items where your neck is on the line for saying one way or the other.

[Nick 329]

Which begs the question for anyone who has access to the CGS statistics - how many 1905 HC, 1917 sov, 1864 die? forins, 1763 1/-, etc have been slabbed? i.e.the known dodgy items where your neck is on the line for saying one way or the other.

According to their population report (key: graded, rejected, highest grade)

1905 HC, 16, 1, 75

1917 SV, 1, 5, 65

1864 die? FL not sure what this is

1763 SH, 10, 5, 78

[Paulus 1,975]

Which begs the question for anyone who has access to the CGS statistics - how many 1905 HC, 1917 sov, 1864 die? forins, 1763 1/-, etc have been slabbed? i.e.the known dodgy items where your neck is on the line for saying one way or the other.

Just had a look Rob:

1905 HC - 16 Graded (1 rejected)

1917 London Sov - 1 (5)

1864 FL (dies 20 and 30) - 2 (0)

1763 SH - 10 (5)

Edit: You beat me to it Nick!

Edited November 1, 2013 by Paulus

[VickySilver 831]

Uh, think the stats on the 17 sov reversed....

[Paulus 1,975]

Uh, think the stats on the 17 sov reversed....

Nope, for the London Mint, 1 graded and 5 rejected!!

[Rob 3,152]

Which begs the question for anyone who has access to the CGS statistics - how many 1905 HC, 1917 sov, 1864 die? forins, 1763 1/-, etc have been slabbed? i.e.the known dodgy items where your neck is on the line for saying one way or the other.

According to their population report (key: graded, rejected, highest grade)

1905 HC, 16, 1, 75

1917 SV, 1, 5, 65

1864 die? FL not sure what this is

1763 SH, 10, 5, 78

1864 florin with the known copies. Can't remember which die it was.

[Paulus 1,975]

Which begs the question for anyone who has access to the CGS statistics - how many 1905 HC, 1917 sov, 1864 die? forins, 1763 1/-, etc have been slabbed? i.e.the known dodgy items where your neck is on the line for saying one way or the other.

According to their population report (key: graded, rejected, highest grade)

1905 HC, 16, 1, 75

1917 SV, 1, 5, 65

1864 die? FL not sure what this is

1763 SH, 10, 5, 78

1864 florin with the known copies. Can't remember which die it was.

You may be referring to die # 64 (same as the year) of which several fakes were being eBayed by a particular seller ... it does not look as though CGS have graded or rejected any of these (although I can only see pics of 3 of the 4 1864s that have passed through their process)

Edited November 1, 2013 by Paulus

[azda 979]

The 1864 florin was die 64

[declanwmagee 122]

1864 Gothic florin, particularly with die no 64....

[declanwmagee 122]

teach me to reply before refreshing...

[Coinery 1,156]

With there's a confirmed 1 and rejected 5, CGS have set a worrying precedent but, fortunately, they must, as a result, know what they're doing, suggesting they are 100% confident in this sovereign, which is why we can buy it and get it slabbed by CGS?

They'll never stick it in a slab, of course, because they know 100% that they are trying it on, and loath the attentions of 'bodies' such as these!

I feel certain that LC would not miss out on the hyper-value that's attached to a slabbed coin of this rarity, unless they were sapless to take it on...it's pennies to them, for christ's sake!

I truly hope any winning bidder reads this thread, and then submits it, and then has the balls to string them out to dry!

Any serious buyer of a 1917 London Mint Sovereign will find this thread, and good on them!

[Peckris 579]

Interesting. Graded one 1917 and rejected 5 ... makes you wonder what earns this particular one a kosher ticket?

[Nick 329]

Which begs the question for anyone who has access to the CGS statistics - how many 1905 HC, 1917 sov, 1864 die? forins, 1763 1/-, etc have been slabbed? i.e.the known dodgy items where your neck is on the line for saying one way or the other.

According to their population report (key: graded, rejected, highest grade)

1905 HC, 16, 1, 75

1917 SV, 1, 5, 65

1864 die? FL not sure what this is

1763 SH, 10, 5, 78

1864 florin with the known copies. Can't remember which die it was.

Doh!!! If anybody should remember, it would be me. The only slabbed die 64 1864 florin I have seen is by NGC.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Nick

[Peter 615]

Maybe refresh before you reply.

[Peter 615]

Maybe refresh before you reply.

Maybe I should as well.

[Sword 1,482]

With there's a confirmed 1 and rejected 5, CGS have set a worrying precedent but, fortunately, they must, as a result, know what they're doing, suggesting they are 100% confident in this sovereign, which is why we can buy it and get it slabbed by CGS?

They'll never stick it in a slab, of course, because they know 100% that they are trying it on, and loath the attentions of 'bodies' such as these!

I feel certain that LC would not miss out on the hyper-value that's attached to a slabbed coin of this rarity, unless they were sapless to take it on...it's pennies to them, for christ's sake!

I truly hope any winning bidder reads this thread, and then submits it, and then has the balls to string them out to dry!

Any serious buyer of a 1917 London Mint Sovereign will find this thread, and good on them!

They can simply reject it on the ground that it has been previously cleaned!

I am not certain it makes much difference if it get slabbed by cgs or not as LC states that they will give a full refund if any of their auction items turns out to be a fake.

If one wants to make a point, then send it to PCGS aftwards to see if it get certified as "genuine".

[Coinery 1,156]

Interesting. Graded one 1917 and rejected 5 ... makes you wonder what earns this particular one a kosher ticket?

In light of its many questionable areas! So, yes, LC, what gives this coin its unquestionable, many qualified observations, its genuineness?