1806 Pennies - Proofs V Currency

[Accumulator 52]

I've been going through my 1806 pennies to catalogue them with the correct Peck numbers.

Generally one can identify a proof from the quality of strike, the mirror-like finish of the fields and the sharp edges but it's good to obtain further confirmation from the die pairings. My understanding is that, while individual dies do match, the two currency die pairings (KP37 & KP38) do not match any of the proof or pattern die pairings (KP28 - KP36), Would this be correct?

My biggest problem is actually distinguishing between copper and bronze proofs! Any one else found this?

[Rob 3,152]

I've been going through my 1806 pennies to catalogue them with the correct Peck numbers.

Generally one can identify a proof from the quality of strike, the mirror-like finish of the fields and the sharp edges but it's good to obtain further confirmation from the die pairings. My understanding is that, while individual dies do match, the two currency die pairings (KP37 & KP38) do not match any of the proof or pattern die pairings (KP28 - KP36), Would this be correct?

My biggest problem is actually distinguishing between copper and bronze proofs! Any one else found this?

Copper and bronze or copper and bronzed? There is a huge difference.

[Colin88 54]

As an aside.....what happened to the 1808 ?....who owns it now?

[Accumulator 52]

I've been going through my 1806 pennies to catalogue them with the correct Peck numbers.

Generally one can identify a proof from the quality of strike, the mirror-like finish of the fields and the sharp edges but it's good to obtain further confirmation from the die pairings. My understanding is that, while individual dies do match, the two currency die pairings (KP37 & KP38) do not match any of the proof or pattern die pairings (KP28 - KP36), Would this be correct?

My biggest problem is actually distinguishing between copper and bronze proofs! Any one else found this?

Copper and bronze or copper and bronzed? There is a huge difference.

Sorry, I meant 'bronzed'!

[Accumulator 52]

As an aside.....what happened to the 1808 ?....who owns it now?

A collector…. it's out there.

[Rob 3,152]

I've been going through my 1806 pennies to catalogue them with the correct Peck numbers.

Generally one can identify a proof from the quality of strike, the mirror-like finish of the fields and the sharp edges but it's good to obtain further confirmation from the die pairings. My understanding is that, while individual dies do match, the two currency die pairings (KP37 & KP38) do not match any of the proof or pattern die pairings (KP28 - KP36), Would this be correct?

My biggest problem is actually distinguishing between copper and bronze proofs! Any one else found this?

Copper and bronze or copper and bronzed? There is a huge difference.

Sorry, I meant 'bronzed'!

Line up half a dozen of each and you will probably find 4 definite coppers, 4 definite bronzeds and 4 definite maybes. Rule of thumb is that bronzed pieces will have a very consistent tone which is much smoother than coppers. The colour can also be useful in determining which is which. In the case of restrikes, Taylor used a particular colour of bronzing which makes life a lot easier. Soho bronzing is darker.

[Rob 3,152]

As an aside.....what happened to the 1808 ?....who owns it now?

A collector…. it's out there.

I concur.

I could do with an image of the reverse, given it isn't illustrated in Peck.

[Accumulator 52]

I've been going through my 1806 pennies to catalogue them with the correct Peck numbers.

Generally one can identify a proof from the quality of strike, the mirror-like finish of the fields and the sharp edges but it's good to obtain further confirmation from the die pairings. My understanding is that, while individual dies do match, the two currency die pairings (KP37 & KP38) do not match any of the proof or pattern die pairings (KP28 - KP36), Would this be correct?

My biggest problem is actually distinguishing between copper and bronze proofs! Any one else found this?

Copper and bronze or copper and bronzed? There is a huge difference.

Sorry, I meant 'bronzed'!

Line up half a dozen of each and you will probably find 4 definite coppers, 4 definite bronzeds and 4 definite maybes. Rule of thumb is that bronzed pieces will have a very consistent tone which is much smoother than coppers. The colour can also be useful in determining which is which. In the case of restrikes, Taylor used a particular colour of bronzing which makes life a lot easier. Soho bronzing is darker.

I think I've pretty much got the bronzed v. copper sorted by doing just that, and comparing them with known metals (including 1805 and 1807). Now I have a few gaps to fill, though as many collectors don't seem to bother I hope to find the rarer die pairings at the 'standard' proof prices.

[Accumulator 52]

As an aside.....what happened to the 1808 ?....who owns it now?

A collector…. it's out there.

I concur.

I could do with an image of the reverse, given it isn't illustrated in Peck.

I'll see what I can do.

[DaveG38 405]

Out of interest, how is 'bronzing' done? Is it a plating process, or a surface copper changing process or a striking process like Barton's metal?

[azda 979]

Whilst on the subject of proofs, i've been watching this one with a view to buying and would like opinions of it.

[Accumulator 52]

Without really big pics, or the coin in hand, it's very difficult to tie it down to a die pairing and Peck number. Let's try anyway….

It's certainly a Type 4 obverse and Type C reverse.

From what I can see, the obverse shows 10 leaves in the wreath and appears to have the double-cut upper berry, so that means KP14, 15 or R56

The reverse just isn't clear enough to decide directly but, looking at known die pairings and the fact that the ship isn't weak, it would have to be either KP15 or R56. As KP 15 only has one incuse dot on the rock, and I'm sure I can see three, that leaves R56 as the only option.

To support this being a re-strike, I'm sure I can see the results of a slightly rusted die.

If I'm right, that makes it a Peck 1148, in Copper.

If you don't want to buy it and the price is reasonable, I'm interested

[azda 979]

Well i also have my eye on another Steve and its the one i'm more interested in. The penny is £600 so if it still interests you then let me know and i'll PM you the link, oh and you won' be able to negotiate, its fixed at that price.

Edited December 8, 2013 by azda

[Accumulator 52]

Thanks, Dave.

I've just found a photo of a Peck 1148 attribution on the London Coins (prices realised) site, sold in September 2013 for £600. So the price is about right, but I'm not 100% convinced its from the same dies now. Please send me the link though, if you're definitely not interested. What do others think (Rob)?

[azda 979]

PM sent Steve

[Peter 615]

Nice but a few problems.

[Peckris 579]

Whilst on the subject of proofs, i've been watching this one with a view to buying and would like opinions of it.

I hope you've made a mental deduction for the reverse wear and the slight scuffing?

[azda 979]

I'm already out Peck, i was looking at two different coins, now looking at one. Accumulator is thinking this one over

[Accumulator 52]

I'm already out Peck, i was looking at two different coins, now looking at one. Accumulator is thinking this one over

Still thinking, but not sure. There appears to be slight scuffing but it's hard to tell without seeing it in hand. My main interest is in identifying the different dies and the only way to do this properly is probably owning examples!

Anyone else care to have a go die identification? I was once told of a collector who only collects 1797 coins (!!), but I don't have contact details.

[Peter 615]

The more I look at it the more scuffs and dings I see.

A few digs as well.

[Rob 3,152]

I think it's a restrike R56. The top berry looks double cut to me and the ship type is correct for the restrike. The number of dots on the rock is more than one.

The wear on the breast may be illusory. As many of the dies were rusted when Taylor obtained them, he engaged in varying degrees of polishing. Without looking at a few images of other R56s, I wouldn't like to say how much wear is seen.

[MRD 6]

Nice but a few problems.

Hi Guys,

I have seen this coin in the hand, the small mark on the rim between R and E of REX is actually a ding that does not show as such in the picture. And the scuffs in front of the kings face are more pronounced in the hand.

[Accumulator 52]

I think it's a restrike R56. The top berry looks double cut to me and the ship type is correct for the restrike. The number of dots on the rock is more than one.

The wear on the breast may be illusory. As many of the dies were rusted when Taylor obtained them, he engaged in varying degrees of polishing. Without looking at a few images of other R56s, I wouldn't like to say how much wear is seen.

So we agree on R56. Thanks Rob, I'm gaining more confidence with these G3 pennies!

[Accumulator 52]

Nice but a few problems.

Hi Guys,

I have seen this coin in the hand, the small mark on the rim between R and E of REX is actually a ding that does not show as such in the picture. And the scuffs in front of the kings face are more pronounced in the hand.

Thank you! I'll give this one a miss I think. It's certain not a bargain which is why it probably didn't sell in the auction. Another R56 will no doubt appear one day.

[Peter 615]

Yep

Exactly

Mrs Peter has reeled me in on a few cars recently.

Apparently I don't need 0-60 in sub 6 seconds or 155mph.