Scarborough Coin 1645

[angela2659 0]

hi,i was wondering if any one can help me with any information about my coin.it was a great grandads coin,i believe it is a real civil war piece and not an ashmore forgery,i would appreciate any info any 1 may have.thanking u :)

angela

[Coinery 1,157]

Hi Angela, does your grandad have any provenance or records to go with this coin? Also, some better pictures would be good! Does it have any ghosting of the design on the reverse?

[HistoricCoinage 147]

Unfortunately this is not the genuine article.

[Paulus 1,975]

Hi Angela, welcome to the Forum!

It would be very nice if that coin is genuine, as it looks to be a Charles I Scarborough Civil War 1 shilling and sixpence (or is it a sixpence, never seen one before!), and, if genuine, would be worth a few £K

Edit: Sorry, I missed HC's post!

Edited December 18, 2013 by Paulus

[angela2659 0]

My great grandad had it in his safe and he past away bout 2yr ago.he lived in newark ,beacon hill ,he found that coin over 50yrs ago out his own bk garden with cannon balls and musket shot with his metal detector.newark castle was sieged and bombarded by cromells round heads and grandad always used to say they were from the round heads.im having trouble posting more pictures up at the mintute so i will try again after.

[angela2659 0]

what makes you think its not genuine?

[angela2659 0]

[Coinery 1,157]

what makes you think its not genuine?

You might want to take a look at the ashmore castle and S punches here!

http://www.tokensociety.org.uk/topics/counterfeits.shtml

[angela2659 0]

i have had a look at that page and its nothing similar to the coin i have.thanks

[Peter 615]

I would suggest a slabbing company.

It really needs to be investigated by hand.

Use CGS and it will cost you about £30+

I would take the advice of forum members...Dodgy.

good luck

[angela2659 0]

thank you very much,all the shops that i have shown this coin too have tried to buy it ,they all claim to be experts....@what?

[Rob 3,152]

First thing to consider is that even the authenticity of the 'genuine' pieces has never been proved and there are some that think all Scarborough siege pieces to be later concoctions. It is certain that they have been known since the early 1700s as Pembroke lot 90 was a 2/- piece and he died in 1733, however, modern (i.e. 20th century) mass produced copies have also been made to satisfy the demand from museum and other gift shops.

This is a page from Lockett's collection, which unfortunately didn't contain a 1s6d, however, if you look at the punches used on the Lockett coins, you will see that they are not as crude as those on your example. The punches used were limited in number.

Your coin also has the letters KD or RD stamped to the right hand side of the castle - presumably the mark of the company that made it. Has it been tested for silver? What is the weight? These two are important as the weight of silver determines the value. What is the other side like? Again, this is important as these are cut from plate and the value stamped on them. Plate is quite thin. Consequently, you will see traces of the design showing through on the reverse.

There was an example of a 'Scarborough' 1s6d in the Tyssen sale (lot 3053) on 31st May 1802 bought by Matthew Young, the dealer. He was an active buyer for B C Roberts at the Tyssen sale, so if this was a commission purchase for the latter it will now be in the BM. Unfortunately I don't have that information or an image of the 1s6d to hand - sorry.

[Nicholas 51]

Goodness Angela.

From what I've gathered there is a chance this may be authentic. Take it to a top level reputable dealer like Spinks and get it appraised and valued for insurance purposes immediately.

If genuine you have a rare relic worth 30-50k GBP. (Worth insuring right!)

Good luck.

[azda 979]

Hmmmmm i think you might not be reading correctly Nicholas, it looks to be that its probably not genuine. The S looks very squint also compared to all the Lockett Plate pictures, the majority of those seem quite straight, that can of course be down to the strike, but looking at the both would make me wonder and also the RD stamped on the right hand side.

Be cautious and don't get annoyed or upset at what the forum members might say, they are trying to help and Rob and historiccoinage are both very knowledgable in this area

Edited December 19, 2013 by azda

[copper123 1,498]

It would be nice if it were a genuine piece but the odds are stacked way against it.

[Nick 329]

Looks like item 2588 in Rob's catalogue also has something like R. D. stamped into it above the castle.

[Coinery 1,157]

I'd love nothing more than this piece be genuine, but it's so suspiciously like the Ashmore punches, that I'm struggling to move on from that!

I think your best bet is CGS for a grading, as Peter has suggested!

You could try London Coin Auction, they'd sell it for you!

[Rob 3,152]

Looks like item 2588 in Rob's catalogue also has something like R. D. stamped into it above the castle.

That has CAROLI FORTUNA RESURGAM inscribed around the centre. For a better image of this piece, look at GC's website http://www.petitioncrown.com/ and scroll down. For years these were attributed to Colchester from the second civil war in 1648-9, though the absence of a mark of value and hopeful inscription clearly places them as medallets rather than coins. Again, some are considered contemporary and others modern (17th or 18th century). They have also been considered as Scarborough at one point due to an engraved inscription naming the place, but this is now poo-poohed.

The Scarborough pieces have been variously described as of both doubtful origin and assumed genuine in the same sale. The 1s9d on the Lockett plate (2584) is one such item, having been described as 'rather doubtful' in the Cuff sale 8th June 1854 (lot 1244), along with the 'very doubtful' 1s1d (lot 1243). Conversely the 6d and 1s (lots 1239 & 1240) had no suspicions raised, but it must be born in mind that these are 'conventional values' which may cloud an opinion.

Unfortunately the reverses aren't shown in the Lockett catalogue, but below is the reverse of the possibly doubtful 1s9d.

[Nick 329]

Looks like item 2588 in Rob's catalogue also has something like R. D. stamped into it above the castle.

That has CAROLI FORTUNA RESURGAM inscribed around the centre.

Thanks Rob. Just goes to show the benefit of a high quality picture and also how easy it is to fool oneself that something is visible when it isn't.

[angela2659 0]

There is no rd next to the castle on the coin i have , there is however surface engraved a big burning cross scaresly visable unless magnified times 40 all the practicle test that will not damage the piece have been done , and its holding up i believe tht there is alot of hidden meanings and symbols on the coin unvisable to the naked eye , its only so clean because my partner cleaned it with a horse hair brush he hates dirt . (OCD) .

[Rob 3,152]

There is no rd next to the castle on the coin i have , there is however surface engraved a big burning cross scaresly visable unless magnified times 40 all the practicle test that will not damage the piece have been done , and its holding up i believe tht there is alot of hidden meanings and symbols on the coin unvisable to the naked eye , its only so clean because my partner cleaned it with a horse hair brush he hates dirt . (OCD) .

Good. So what's the weight and did it test positive for silver?

[angela2659 0]

its more likely to be electrum ,approx its 4.3grams

[TomGoodheart 403]

See here: http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=133&searchlot=198&searchtype=2

This example is from the same dies as yours and London Coins did not consider it genuine.

I'm not sure about your comment about the 'RD' since it looks fairly clear on your photo. And had it been genuine cleaning it with a horse brush really wouldn't have been a good idea. Cleaned coins generally sell for a fraction of uncleaned. Please don't mess with it any more.

Edited December 19, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[TomGoodheart 403]

[angela2659 0]

i appreciate everyones replies but it looks nothing like the 2588 in the post,its S D ,not R D or K D .

Heres another 2 pictures of coin.