Question Re: 1787 Silver Issues.

[Garrett 76]

Hi everyone

Just a quick question,

I've been reading about the shortage of silvers in the late 1700's and early 1800's leading up to the re-coinage in 1816.

Bank tokens were issued, foreign coins were counter-stamped with George III image.

If there was such a shortage, why is it so easy to buy 1787 shillings and sixpences these days in really good condition these days ?

I would have thought they would have copped a hammering.

Was there a hoard found sometime later ?

Cheers

Garrett.

[Rob 3,152]

Good question. I'll have to think about that one.

[azda 979]

Hmmmm, off the top of my head i could only go with that i don't find them a popular coin, much like the Bank tokens there is'nt enough variety or variation to be a collectable series. Just my opinion, i could be wrong though

[Coinery 1,148]

Hmmmm, off the top of my head i could only go with that i don't find them a popular coin, much like the Bank tokens there is'nt enough variety or variation to be a collectable series. Just my opinion, i could be wrong though

That still doesn't answer the grade issue, why they weren't worn out at the time?

[azda 979]

Hmmmm, off the top of my head i could only go with that i don't find them a popular coin, much like the Bank tokens there is'nt enough variety or variation to be a collectable series. Just my opinion, i could be wrong though

That still doesn't answer the grade issue, why they weren't worn out at the time?

Minted in numbers? Plus the tokens that were likely still around, plus it being a relatively new coinage perhaps people were thinking it was'nt kosha Geld. Its certainly one to think about

[Accumulator 52]

Good question. I'll have to think about that one.

2.00 in the morning and a rather succinct answer... A heavy night, Rob?

Edited December 21, 2013 by Accumulator

[davidrj 194]

Probably throughout history, when economic times are bad, silver and gold disappears under mattresses

[Nick 329]

It might simply be that the 1787 issues were the first official shilling and sixpence of George III issued for use in Great Britain and therefore saved as a souvenir.

[TomGoodheart 400]

Was there a hoard found sometime later ?

A few bags stored in a bank somewhere makes sense, but I don't know for sure.

I also seem to remember a study that showed that regular people (ie not coin collectors who, of course, do it differently!) tend to hold on to nicer coins they find in their change and spend the knackered ones first. So maybe people took the opportunity of the new issue to get rid of older circulated coin which, though the same face value, was underweight?

[DaveG38 405]

Another interesting aspect of this might be where the silver came from. For two decades, nearly, there was little, if any, silver issued, and then suddenly there's a large outpouring from the mint. I can accept that not all coins dated 1787 were necessarily minted that year, but even so, with the dearth of silver coins in circulation it does seem odd that there was this sudden unlocking of a vault full of silver. So does anybody know where it came from and why it was issued in 1787?

[Rob 3,152]

Good question. I'll have to think about that one.

2.00 in the morning and a rather succinct answer... A heavy night, Rob?

I haven't had a heavy night for ages. I just don't know the answer to the question. However, a possible explanation can be found in the 2004 article by Manville & Gaspar, which notes the following.

The coins were made for the Bank of England and not the government. The Bank was continually pressed for a supply of coin for gifts etc, and had them made due to the shortage of currency prevailing at the time. They were not issued for currency, and although some or likely most entered circulation, an above average number were saved as momentos or keepsakes.

[copper123 1,482]

I suspect the reason was because ,even though they were produced in large numbers, they were hoarded - GB plc was in real trouble at the time france looked in real danger of either passing their revolution to the UK or later on with invasion from napoleon. The american colonies were lost so a pottentally a large source of tax income was no more.

And finally the king was behaving very strangely

A lot of the coins in circulation were old and very worn (how often have you seen William III silver with no clear dates).

The old addage of bad money drives out good , rang true here with everyone in the country trying to get hold of these coins of good weight and high silver content and salting them away under beds etc , just in case the worst happened.

[Peckris 579]

Hi everyone

Just a quick question,

I've been reading about the shortage of silvers in the late 1700's and early 1800's leading up to the re-coinage in 1816.

Bank tokens were issued, foreign coins were counter-stamped with George III image.

If there was such a shortage, why is it so easy to buy 1787 shillings and sixpences these days in really good condition these days ?

I would have thought they would have copped a hammering.

Was there a hoard found sometime later ?

Cheers

Garrett.

They weren't issued for general circulation - they were issued by the Bank to its customers most of whom would have kept them which is why they are so readily available in high grade. Other silver in circulation was either very old (early milled) or as you say, token and counterstamped issues. Had the 1787 issue been for circulation, it would have been followed rapidly by other years, as there would have been much interest in them. The actual contemporary quote :

"In the year 1787 the Bank coined £55,280 in New Silver, not with any intention of issuing it in general to the Publick, but only in small quantities to their Customers at Christmastime."

It's also worth pointing out that advanced minting techniques were used to produce the 1787 silver. This, from a good article on the whole subject in the BNJ (The 1787 Shilling - A Transition in Minting Technique by H.E. MANVILLE and P.P. GASPAR):

"These coins reflect an intermediate stage in the modernization of coinage techniques. The

inscriptions on the obverse dies were made with individual letter punches, a centuries-old prac-

tice, but the reverse dies were sunk from fully-lettered punches, a major advance. Even on the

reverse dies, however, fine features such as stops, the Westphalian horse, the semee of hearts in

the Hanoverian arms, and the strings of the Irish harp were added individually, suggesting that

truly complete punches (except for the last two date digits) remained difficult to manufacture or

impractical to use. "

[Peter 615]

Good work Peck.

The George 111 also seem quite robust/harder silver than earlier issues.

[copper123 1,482]

Is not "A bank passing on a new currency to its customers " called putting a new issue into circulation these days - surely a bank has no say in what happens to money it has just given out to a customer - they do with it as they wish

Edited December 21, 2013 by copper123

[copper123 1,482]

well in 2013 they do anyway - not sure about the 1780's

[Rob 3,152]

Prior to the introduction of RM token coinage in 1816, the amount of silver coined depended on how much was brought to the mint, which in turn depended on the price of silver in the market. This resulted in long periods of time when no or little silver was coined (e.g. most of the period 1610-20) as it was stupid to take more than face value to be coined, yet receive face value in return. It also meant that any full weight coins would be hoarded having an intrinsic value higher than face. When these were coined, according to M & G, they were issued to customers as Christmas gifts etc as mentioned above, so in this respect the BoE was acting in a normal manner by bringing silver to the mint and converting it into coin. It was also absorbing any silver market pricing differences which during the late 18th century and up to 1816 afterwards was regularly higher than face. This is why the BoE Spanish dollars traded at up to 5s6d despite being of lower weight and fineness than a regular crown for example.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rob

[Peckris 579]

Is not "A bank passing on a new currency to its customers " called putting a new issue into circulation these days - surely a bank has no say in what happens to money it has just given out to a customer - they do with it as they wish

Well yes - but if it was presented (as were the Crowns between 1818 and 1820) as a "special issue", the recipients would have surely felt they were in possession of something to be treasured rather than be spent? After all, there would be more than a century of worn silver to spend in transactions; no need to spend ssomething so new the like of which they would never have seen.

[copper123 1,482]

Got it now LOL

[Garrett 76]

Got it now LOL

Yep, me too.

Interesting discussion and thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer.

Makes sense now.

cheers

Garrett.

[scottishmoney 29]

Another date that comes up frequently at least for sixpences is 1758, a decent hoard of high grade examples was found in a vault somewhere years ago and dispersed into the market.

1787 also saw the coinage of a decent amount of gold for a change - nice because I have a guinea from that year.

[azda 979]

Another date that comes up frequently at least for sixpences is 1758, a decent hoard of high grade examples was found in a vault somewhere years ago and dispersed into the market.

1787 also saw the coinage of a decent amount of gold for a change - nice because I have a guinea from that year.

You seem to get around scottishmoney. You were in the Ukraine for a while, now Boston?

[Peckris 579]

Another date that comes up frequently at least for sixpences is 1758, a decent hoard of high grade examples was found in a vault somewhere years ago and dispersed into the market.

1787 also saw the coinage of a decent amount of gold for a change - nice because I have a guinea from that year.

I think it's also due to the fact they kept on minting them (and shillings) for years, the same is probably true for 1754 copper.

[copper123 1,482]

Another date that comes up frequently at least for sixpences is 1758, a decent hoard of high grade examples was found in a vault somewhere years ago and dispersed into the market.

1787 also saw the coinage of a decent amount of gold for a change - nice because I have a guinea from that year.

I think it's also due to the fact they kept on minting them (and shillings) for years, the same is probably true for 1754 copper.

1754 farthings were minted for at least a couple of years after that date - exactly like 1967 pennies

[Rob 3,152]

And the BoE dollars. Verifiably so given there are examples with undertype dated at least as late as 1811.