George V Pennies, H And Kn

[VickySilver 830]

As the Boards are a bit slow, I thought I'd toss this out there:

These pennies, especially those of 1918 and 1919 are often stated to be scarcer and even rare in well struck and better preserved state. Perhaps members would like to comment.

IMO, the 1912 H can occasionally come poorly struck but is readily available with excellent strike and lustre. Might be a bit overpriced even...

The Heaton coins of the latter two years are usually panned for quality of strike and thought to be scarce. In my experience, the 1918 is indeed usually poorly struck with mushy details and recall there being a hoard of such coming to market in the latter '80s. Overall, the most common of the latter group of four.

Somewhat scarcer in "full red", is pretty scarce well struck. The 1919 H, is IMO decidedly scarcer yet in well struck form and when of good alloy. Many times what looks to be perhaps a nicer specimen is spoiled by metal composition issues, directly or indirectly as there can be unpleasant toning which I have seen on the obverse especially.

In my experience, this date in truly top condition may be as scarce as the 1918 KN.

The KN issues generally come slightly better struck than their H counterparts, but a bit worse than London issues (which may also come poorly struck). Both the 1918 and 1919 appear to be overall scarcer in GEF or uncirculated condition than the Heaton pennies.

Overall, I sure haven't seen much interest in these or the later 1926 ME penny, but appreciate them...

PS - I don't seem to be able to post the example of the 1918 H penny on www.northeastcoin.com that is MS64 but of the usual poor strike

[Accumulator 52]

I think that's a really good summary of their relative scarcity. Here's my take, which is similar:

1912H - Really quite common, even in GEF+, and generally well struck up. I see plenty for sale, even on eBay

1918H - Just about all the examples I've seen have the 'mushy' reverse. I've also been told of the hoard that was found in the 80's and gradually dripped into the market. I bought the recent Spink New York example (it wasn't expensive) and am hoping it's slightly better than the norm. At the moment I only have fairly poor photos so will have to wait and see!

1919H - As you say, much less common in good grade than the 1918H's. Much better struck up too. I hadn't noticed the allow problem that plagues the KN's on this coin, but I haven't looked at too many.

1918KN - Well struck and some nice coins around, but never cheap in top grade

1919KN - With these I've frequently noticed the reddish alloy (at least I presume it's the alloy). Again generally well struck nd always commanding the highest prices. £2,500+ for a true BU example, close to prices for the 1926ME.

Here's an example of the reddish alloy:

[Peckris 579]

I think that's a really good summary of their relative scarcity. Here's my take, which is similar:

1912H - Really quite common, even in GEF+, and generally well struck up. I see plenty for sale, even on eBay

1918H - Just about all the examples I've seen have the 'mushy' reverse. I've also been told of the hoard that was found in the 80's and gradually dripped into the market. I bought the recent Spink New York example (it wasn't expensive) and am hoping it's slightly better than the norm. At the moment I only have fairly poor photos so will have to wait and see!

1919H - As you say, much less common in good grade than the 1918H's. Much better struck up too. I hadn't noticed the allow problem that plagues the KN's on this coin, but I haven't looked at too many.

1918KN - Well struck and some nice coins around, but never cheap in top grade

1919KN - With these I've frequently noticed the reddish alloy (at least I presume it's the alloy). Again generally well struck nd always commanding the highest prices. £2,500+ for a true BU example, close to prices for the 1926ME.

Here's an example of the reddish alloy:

Yes, the 'red' KNs are due to the alloy mix used at Kings Norton. You can actually see it from 1912 to 1919, all years the Mint recorded that they were supplied with blanks by the Kings Norton Company. My own view is that they also supplied unrecorded blanks in 1908-1910 as you quite often see 'red' pennies in those years too.

My view of comparative rarity is :

high grade - 1912H, 1918H, 1918KN, 1919H, 1919KN

low grade - 1912H, 1919H, 1918H, 1918KN, 1919KN

Irrespective of grade, 1912H are very common (12 million?) but in demand as a cheap way to get a decent Heaton; 1919H are fairly common; 1918H and KN are about equal scarce; 1919KN is very scarce to rare (I'd say about 8 times as rare as 1918KN).

[scott 144]

I have red ones from 1893 and standard 1912

[Peckris 579]

I have red ones from 1893 and standard 1912

Yes, the "1912 KN" is actually rather common so I'm guessing a lot of blanks were supplied that year.

[VickySilver 830]

I have also seen a few higher grade 19KNs that have a brassy appearance that have managed to acquire some unpleasant dark fingerprinting. These would be otherwise gEF coins - well, two of them anyway. I don't believe, but can not prove they were cleaned either. I have one that I will try to post [eventually!].

[Rob 3,152]

Goldberg's sale has a pair of undesirable KNs slabbed MS63 today for which I'm glad the website is unobtainable at the moment, lest I should inadvertently place a bid.

On the question of accessibility, is anyone else able to access Goldberg's site at the moment? I was going to bid on a lot (not a KN), but can't find a way to access their home page or Goldberg Live as all roads lead to the AVG 'page not found' page. This includes the link from the email they sent saying 'place bids'. Are they trying to overtake Spink in the most useless website category?

Edited January 28, 2014 by Rob

[Colin G. 147]

All working fine here

[Rob 3,152]

All working fine here

According to the catalogue it says that you can bid on Goldberg Live, but that just gives page not found. Anyway, I was only interested in one lot, so it's not the end of the world. I'm sure I can find somewhere else to spend my money.

[Accumulator 52]

All working fine here

According to the catalogue it says that you can bid on Goldberg Live, but that just gives page not found. Anyway, I was only interested in one lot, so it's not the end of the world. I'm sure I can find somewhere else to spend my money.

Someone at Goldberg told me that bidding was possible through the-saleroom.com when I spoke with them last week, but this turns out not to be true. I phoned them earlier today and am logged in now though, as you say, the site was actually down for around an hour at lunchtime (their time).

Edit: I agree about the KN's… terrible. In fact most of their pennies are. I'm not at all convinced by the 1877 proof (especially given the bad die clash, which is completely missing from other proof examples)

Edited January 28, 2014 by Accumulator

[Rob 3,152]

When I google goldberg coins and try the link it is still giving the AVG not found page. Just put it down to a bad day at the office.

[Peckris 579]

All working fine here

According to the catalogue it says that you can bid on Goldberg Live, but that just gives page not found. Anyway, I was only interested in one lot, so it's not the end of the world. I'm sure I can find somewhere else to spend my money.

Someone at Goldberg told me that bidding was possible through the-saleroom.com when I spoke with them last week, but this turns out not to be true. I phoned them earlier today and am logged in now though, as you say, the site was actually down for around an hour at lunchtime (their time).

Edit: I agree about the KN's… terrible. In fact most of their pennies are. I'm not at all convinced by the 1877 proof (especially given the bad die clash, which is completely missing from other proof examples)

I did a search for KN on their auction site, and pages and pages of lots were returned. I then narrowed it down to 1918KN and 1919KN, and nothing was found in either case.

[Rob 3,152]

They were in sale 77C which is a blue green cover. Sometimes the catalogue comes up, others not. The website seems a bit troublesome at the moment as I couldn't log in or bid, or even find it most of the time.

Lots 3265 & 3267 refer.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Rob

[Peckris 579]

They were in sale 77C which is a blue green cover. Sometimes the catalogue comes up, others not. The website seems a bit troublesome at the moment as I couldn't log in or bid, or even find it most of the time.

Lots 3265 & 3267 refer.

I had the same problem as you Rob - I did a search for a specific lot number in Sale 77, but got my browser's "Cannot open the page - too many redirects" message.

[Accumulator 52]

This is the 1918H which has arrived from Spink NY. It was relatively cheap, so I'm quite happy with the punt on a poor photo. The coin has 95% lustre and doesn't suffer from the really heavy ghosting on the reverse, however it's a typically poor strike with low definition and a mushy looking Britannia. I'm beginning to wonder if any better example's exist?

Edited February 6, 2014 by Accumulator

[Coinery 1,147]

I think you're right!

Incidentally, this is a bugger of a coin to grade because, whilst there appears to be wear in the classic places, it looks to be, as much as it's photographically possible to decipher, an UNC coin, but you just have to say AU though?

Where are you at with that one?

Edit: if I was buying, I'd definitely pay the strong side of the space between AU & UNC

Edited February 6, 2014 by Coinery

[Peckris 579]

This is the 1918H which has arrived from Spink NY. It was relatively cheap, so I'm quite happy with the punt on a poor photo. The coin has 95% lustre and doesn't suffer from the really heavy ghosting on the reverse, however it's a typically poor strike with low definition and a mushy looking Britannia. I'm beginning to wonder if any better example's exist?

Forget the 'mushy Britannia' - that is absolutely normal and standard for most GV pennies between 1911 and 1921 (the recessed ear varieties excepted). Yes, the obverse hair detail is faint, and that occurs often on the Heaton and Kings Norton pennies 1918-19 because they used dies way beyond their sell-by date. You would expect to pay a premium for a well struck-up obverse, but on your example, the fact of near full lustre kind of offsets that. I've seen a lot stronger UNC strike (London Coins?, a few years ago), but the lustre on yours is the first I've seen with that amount.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Accumulator 52]

I paid about the same as CC's list example, which I've seen. RAS has one too, but for considerably more. Neither of these coins were quite what I was after so, knowing from the photos that I could get my money back, I took a punt on this being better.

It has full lustre, with the minutest friction marks on the highest points (not really visible in hand), almost no bag marks, good clean edges and well struck lettering and date. The bust looks slightly better in hand, but there's no doubt that the chest and head areas of Britannia, in particular, are poorly struck. My head says UNC, because by definition that's what it is, but my heart will say AUNC and still be looking for a better one! Does such a beast exist though?

[Peckris 579]

there's no doubt that the chest and head areas of Britannia, in particular, are poorly struck. My head says UNC, because by definition that's what it is, but my heart will say AUNC and still be looking for a better one! Does such a beast exist though?

I thought you were a penny collector!!! Britannia is almost NEVER fully struck in that series, her face and chest suffering in particular, due to the sucking

.... [pauses for audience laughter to die down] ....

away of metal caused by the very deep cut obverse design. You would be very very lucky to find one that was NOT mushy.

[Accumulator 52]

there's no doubt that the chest and head areas of Britannia, in particular, are poorly struck. My head says UNC, because by definition that's what it is, but my heart will say AUNC and still be looking for a better one! Does such a beast exist though?

I thought you were a penny collector!!! Britannia is almost NEVER fully struck in that series, her face and chest suffering in particular, due to the sucking

.... [pauses for audience laughter to die down] ....

away of metal caused by the very deep cut obverse design. You would be very very lucky to find one that was NOT mushy.

You've said it right there… "almost" means it's out there and waiting to be found!

Even something like this regular 1918 is way better:

Edited February 6, 2014 by Accumulator

[Paulus 1,975]

I know next to nothing about these so my coat is within easy reach, but is it possible that Heaton and/or Kings Norton processes/raw materials were different?

[Peckris 579]

I know next to nothing about these so my coat is within easy reach, but is it possible that Heaton and/or Kings Norton processes/raw materials were different?

Clearly they both used slightly different alloys - that would explain why Heaton pennies are nearly all black (or darker than RM) and K.N. - who supplied blanks to the RM over quite a few years - are very often reddish. But the dies they used were provided by RM and presumably all they did was to punch in the H / KN? I imagine that the Mint, who used dies to wear beyond normal during the War, told their subcontractors not to worry too much about wear, which explains why you see it so often.

I don't know what their processes were, but Heatons had been used to mint bronze since the 1870s, so I imagine they were subject to RM approval and inspection?

[Coinery 1,147]

I'd be extremely happy putting that 18H to bed and forgetting about it, saying 'job done' myself!

I'd be very, VERY, impressed to see you ever upgrade it!

[davidrj 194]

But the dies they used were provided by RM and presumably all they did was to punch in the H / KN?

Did they? or did the RM provide Heatons & Kings Norton pre-punched dies? Sweeney's Numismatic History of the Birmingham Mint is silent on the subject.

However pre-punched were issued by the RM for later colonial coins, this snippet is from "British Commonwealth Coins" by Remick

Food for thought

[Peckris 579]

That's fascinating David - it looks from that, that the RM pre-engraved the H & KN on the dies? It would make sense, as punching tiny letters onto individual dies would be an irregular and inconsistent thing for the recipients.