Coin Identification - C.1810 George Iii Half-Guinea ?

[britcoinz]

Hi, I have an old coin that looks similar to George III Half-guineas I can see on the web. If anyone can ID it and give an idea of its value it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[Rob]

It isn't genuine, whatever it is. Size will determine what denomination it purports to represent. It's a brass or copper token of some form.

[Colin G.]

Hi,

It would appear that you have a contemporary counterfeit of a George III shilling or sixpence. The silver wash has come off revealing the base metal. We have a user on the forum Seuk who specialises in these and may be able to give you more info, but the condition is not the best.

[Rob]

I thought that at first, but if it is 1810, then I'm not sure there are any forgeries of that date. I thought the final digit loked like a 0

[Colin G.]

I was thinking 1820

[Peter]

It looks like it is a brass copy.

A half guinea will be 21mm and weigh 4.1g.

Thus the value will be minimal.

[Rob]

I was assuming it had been deciphered correctly in hand. Anyway, the date doesn't matter because it's a grotty example of a base forgery/token whatever, so no real value.

[Peckris]

Counterfeit shilling (or sixpence) in brass, for my money.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Peckris

[britcoinz]

Thanks all.

Looking at the piccys on the net it does seem to be a Geo III Shilling of some sort, not a (half) guinea. This is based on the observation (which might not be correct) that the Shilling is the only George III coin to have "GEOR III DG" written below/left of the head whereas all the other coins seems to have "GEORGIUS III" instead. The reverse side also matches.

The counterfeiting is interesting in itself; Why was it so prevalent in Georgian times and not before or after?

Having said this I am confused by the comment that the "silver wash has come off revealing the base metal". It seems as if there were both silver and gold Geo III shillings so why could it not be one of the gold ones which needs cleaning? For examples see:-

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/george-iii-pattern-shilling-3813057-details.aspx?intObjectID=3813057

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GREAT_BRITAIN,_GEORGE_III,_1819_-SHILLING_b_-_Flickr_-_woody1778a.jpg

http://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=1819shillingnewcoinage.html

[britcoinz]

btw the edge of the coin is blackened like half of the faces. I just rubbed the edge on a piece of plain paper and it left black/brown marks on the paper. In other words the coin has not been cleaned (perhaps ever) and has gunk on it. The remaining raised edges show as gold and the lowered areas as black.

[Rob]

Thanks all.

Looking at the piccys on the net it does seem to be a Geo III Shilling of some sort, not a (half) guinea. This is based on the observation (which might not be correct) that the Shilling is the only George III coin to have "GEOR III DG" written below/left of the head whereas all the other coins seems to have "GEORGIUS III" instead. The reverse side also matches.

The counterfeiting is interesting in itself; Why was it so prevalent in Georgian times and not before or after?

Having said this I am confused by the comment that the "silver wash has come off revealing the base metal". It seems as if there were both silver and gold Geo III shillings so why could it not be one of the gold ones which needs cleaning? For examples see:-

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/george-iii-pattern-shilling-3813057-details.aspx?intObjectID=3813057

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GREAT_BRITAIN,_GEORGE_III,_1819_-SHILLING_b_-_Flickr_-_woody1778a.jpg

http://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=1819shillingnewcoinage.html

You have fallen into the trap like so many people who know little or nothing about coins - they automatically assume they have found the rarest of the potential options. The gold pattern on the first link is unique or nearly so. It is solid gold, not plated, so you wouldn't find underlying copper which is what the dark marks are when you rub it. Contemporary forgeries are common and are typically a copper core with a silver wash applied. They may also be brass. Both of these degrade in the earth, but the outcome will depend on the pH of the soil, though corroded is the norm.

They were made because people could make money from counterfeiting. Nothing has changed. There was a national shortage of all metals during the Napoleonic Wars leading to a hike in prices. This in turn had a knock on effect on the coins which were frquently trading above the value at which they were previously issued. The mint wasn't going to make coins with a face value of less than the cost of the metal. Forgeries were usually lightweight - this was the counterfeiters' profit.

[britcoinz]

Not at all. I don't assume anything, it is just there is not a sign of any silver anywhere. On the parts that have been rubbed a lot, i.e. the raised parts, it is a goldish colour and on the sunken parts where dirt gathers it is black. The exception is the edge which when rubbed seems to become more gold and leaves dirty smears on paper.

It is a goldish metal covered in a black substance not vice versa.

Whether it is gold or bronze or brass or copper is another matter..

[Gary D]

Not at all. I don't assume anything, it is just there is not a sign of any silver anywhere. On the parts that have been rubbed a lot, i.e. the raised parts, it is a goldish colour and on the sunken parts where dirt gathers it is black. The exception is the edge which when rubbed seems to become more gold and leaves dirty smears on paper.

It is a goldish metal covered in a black substance not vice versa.

Whether it is gold or bronze or brass or copper is another matter..

Silver when it oxidizes turns black or brown. The wash being very thin could have completely oxidized.

[Chris Perkins]

Whether it is gold or bronze or brass or copper is another matter..

It's brass. If it's not brass, I'll eat it.

[copper123]

Yes lots of people actually threw these coins away (Probably after a few attempts to pass the coin off as genuine)

This accounts for the grottyness of many of the coins

What do you do if you get stitched up with a fake £20 these days (my guess would be to try and pass it off first but if that don't suceed rip it up in disgust

They are a very common detector find.

[Peckris]

Yes lots of people actually threw these coins away (Probably after a few attempts to pass the coin off as genuine)

This accounts for the grottyness of many of the coins

What do you do if you get stitched up with a fake £20 these days (my guess would be to try and pass it off first but if that don't suceed rip it up in disgust

They are a very common detector find.

Wow, detectors can find fake banknotes too?

[copper123]

It's the metal strip!