Query on 1858 penny

[Greaves 1]

I am new to the site reviving an old childhood hobby. I have bought an 1858 penny and have read Michael Gouby's comprehensive descriptions of variations at:

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp_1858.htmhttp://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp_1858.htm

However I cannot definitely identify if this is a known variant. It has no WW and a large date (11 beads wide). There is a tall 1 and the 5 is closer to the first 8. The two 8s are over-struck over 8s (evident to the left side of both) and there is a possibility the 1 and 5 are over-struck too, although this is not entirely clear. The 1 may be over-struck over a 1 (possible evidence to the right side) and the 5 over 5 with evidence at the top. If so the closest to Gouby's list is CP1858 Hb.

Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to take a picture of the coin to show these features but can anyone shed any light on this coin? Thanks in anticipation. Mike

[Peckris 579]

Without seeing pictures it's difficult (a scan would be fine), but your penny sounds very much like mine. I just had a quick look and I still have the picture :

Do you think that's it? Bear in mind that this is not at all unusual for the copper series and despite Michael's sterling work on identifying the variants there are few rarities for this date. Numerals were often recut / re-stamped, and so you get what look like classic 'overdates', but they're not really.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Peckris

[Greaves 1]

Thanks Peckris. Yes there are some similarities however but the 5 on yours seems more evenly spaced between the 8s whereas mine appears closer to the first 8. In addition mine does not have the clear over-striking on the 1 and 5 as yours does. Your coin is clearly over-struck at the bottom of the 1 and 5 mine as well as the 8s. The over-striking on mine is evident in different places on different numerals as explained in my first post. I have attached an image but I don't think the quality is good enough to see the over-striking. I can see it clear enough through my illuminated magnifier.

[Greaves 1]

Sorry, I can't upload the picture. I am getting a error message that the file (JPEG) is too big to send.

[Peckris 579]

Sorry, I can't upload the picture. I am getting a error message that the file (JPEG) is too big to send.

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/topic/7880-posting-pics/

[Greaves 1]

[Peckris 579]

Good work on getting a picture up - any chance of a close-up of the date?

[Greaves 1]

Unfortunately not. I am currently at the limit of my photographic capabilities with my camera. I may be able to get something more detailed in a few weeks when my son is home. I think I need to consider a new more suitable digital camera for coin photography or find a local photographer who can take pictures, no success so far. If camera reviews or recommendations have been covered on this forum I would appreciate help to guide to them.

I think the photo I posted shows the tall 1 and the 5 closer to the first 8 but not the evidence of over-striking on the individual numbers as described that is visible through the magnifier. If I can get anything more detailed I'll post again. Thanks for your help.

[RLC35 288]

Unfortunately not. I am currently at the limit of my photographic capabilities with my camera. I may be able to get something more detailed in a few weeks when my son is home. I think I need to consider a new more suitable digital camera for coin photography or find a local photographer who can take pictures, no success so far. If camera reviews or recommendations have been covered on this forum I would appreciate help to guide to them.

I think the photo I posted shows the tall 1 and the 5 closer to the first 8 but not the evidence of over-striking on the individual numbers as described that is visible through the magnifier. If I can get anything more detailed I'll post again. Thanks for your help.

Greaves, I use a Canon Powershot SD1000 (Digital Elf). It has a Macro selection, and zoom. It does a pretty good job at closeups of dates, etc. It not expensive, so if you need a cheap camera, that does a good job, you might try one out.

[Greaves 1]

Thanks Bob. I'll take a look at this camera.

[Greaves 1]

Peckris, you asked if you could see an image of my 1858 penny with a close up of the date. I now have some IMG images which I can e-mail to you (or anyone else) if you wish. However you have to use the image's magnifier to view the over-striking I have described. Hence I don't see any point in uploading the photos to the forum. I can be e-mailed at mwgrant54@gmail.com

Mike

[Peckris 579]

Peckris, you asked if you could see an image of my 1858 penny with a close up of the date. I now have some IMG images which I can e-mail to you (or anyone else) if you wish. However you have to use the image's magnifier to view the over-striking I have described. Hence I don't see any point in uploading the photos to the forum. I can be e-mailed at mwgrant54@gmail.com

Mike

I'm not quite sure what you mean about "the image's magnifier"? Most images don't come with a magnifier unlike software. If the image files are that big, I'm not sure my email Inbox has enough free space left? I wonder if you could just reduce the image to the date part and upload here - I'd still be interested to see it.

[azda 979]

The copper Series was riddled with reworked dies amd i think this is what you may be describing. Check the legends also, you may see evidence of letters over letters

[Greaves 1]

Peckris, Apologies you are quite correct. What I should have said is that the windows photo viewer I use has a magnifier and when I use that on the image I can see the over-striking. I am not sure how to get a better image showing the date and the over-striking onto the forum. I'll may be able to do this when my son next comes home but failing that if you end up creating more space in your inbox I can e-mail you the photos I have. I promise I won't send you anything else e.g. junk mail!

Hugh_Janus, thanks for the information and idea. There is some possible over-striking on the A of VICTORIA and D & E of the DEI but generally it is not evident on the lettering.

[Greaves 1]

I think this photo shows the over-striking on the date, notably on the 8s on top left and left hand sides and the 1 on the right hand edge. The 5 also looks over-struck on the top, but this is difficult to see in the photo. Any comments would be appreciated.

[Greaves 1]

Oops. Here it is.

[Rob 3,152]

With it being a no WW coin found only on coins dated 1858 to 1860, there shouldn't be any underlying digit for an overdate. Any apparent overstrike will be a deeper punch cut slightly off centre to the initial one. Dies frequently had their legend and/or date reinforced when they became blocked through prolonged use. If a hardened die was repaired in this fashion, the repair is usually seen slightly displaced as the metal will be more difficult to work. Also, there is a relatively small chance the same punch will be used for the repair as was used to cut the die in the first place, so it may well have slightly different dimensions to the original.

Not a variety in my opinion as it is just normal wear and tear.

[Peckris 579]

With it being a no WW coin found only on coins dated 1858 to 1860, there shouldn't be any underlying digit for an overdate. Any apparent overstrike will be a deeper punch cut slightly off centre to the initial one. Dies frequently had their legend and/or date reinforced when they became blocked through prolonged use. If a hardened die was repaired in this fashion, the repair is usually seen slightly displaced as the metal will be more difficult to work. Also, there is a relatively small chance the same punch will be used for the repair as was used to cut the die in the first place, so it may well have slightly different dimensions to the original.

Not a variety in my opinion as it is just normal wear and tear.

I agree - I have an 1858 with all the digits 'recut' in this way, but even more so. What we see here is almost the norm for 19th Century coppers, except on early issues from a particular die. It is less pronounced with the bronze series.

[Greaves 1]

Thanks Rob and Peckris, interesting information.