1863 one penny confusion, help please :)

[will6489 0]

Hi all, I am completely new to this site and infant to the world of coins. I just inherited a few coins from my grandfather, and after googling a few of them, one that I have shows some possible potential. I have an 1863 one penny coin, in my opinion its in a good condition (but what do I know!), has been kept in a little sleeve for many years. I've seen these selling on the London coin collection auctions for anything from a few hundred pounds to several thousands, and tbh I cannot really tell much of a difference between mine and the high sellers. I have read about the die numbers underneath the date, which I cannot see on mine, however I also can't see it on any of the ones that sold for the big bucks online. Could anyone shine a little light on this for me please? I have attached some pictures, best I could do with my phone sadly.

Thanks, appreciate your time!

[TomGoodheart 446]

As far as I can tell coins with die numbers are rare trial pieces that entered circulation.

The number would be below the date. But I can't see any sign of one in your photo I'm afraid.

I'll leave it for someone else to give a grade and confirm what I've said. In the meantime, welcome!

.

[will6489 0]

I see, I was looking below the date too but can't see any numbers. However a coin similar to mine with no visible die numbers sold for £1500 at auction on LondonCoins so I am still a little confused as to the difference.

Thank you very much for your reply regardless

[TomGoodheart 446]

There are quite a few variations amongst Victorian coinage, some are particularly rare. I presume the London one was a rare variety, however it's not my area I'm afraid.

Hopefully someone with knowledge in that area will chip in in due course!

.

[just.me 23]

I see, I was looking below the date too but can't see any numbers. However a coin similar to mine with no visible die numbers sold for £1500 at auction on LondonCoins so I am still a little confused as to the difference.

Thank you very much for your reply regardless

Hi and welcome, the Penny in LCA that sold for £1500 was an open 3 1863 Penny. The difference is in the style of the number 3.

Open up the pictures on London coins and compare a normal 1863 to the open 3 1863 and compare the diagonal strokes of the 3s, thats the biggest difference. Open 3 has a curved diagonal stroke and the normal 3 has a straight diagonal (the same as yours).

[Peckris 579]

It may be because the coin is pictured on its side, but the obverse seems to show a phenomenally large gap between the border teeth and the linear circle, especially on the right hand side. Perhaps it's just an optical illusion, but would anyone like to comment further?

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

I'm on my cell phone... so the image is smallish...

however it looks to me to be a normal 3 F-42 ......

Not a half-penny date...

Not an open 3, nor a slender 3...

No indication of a die number...

[will6489 0]

Thank you for the info! No idea why the pics uploaded on the side

I shall be keeping be keeping the coin as a fond memory regardless of it's value, but it is interesting to find these things out. Thanks again all

[Peckris 579]

I'm on my cell phone... so the image is smallish...

however it looks to me to be a normal 3 F-42 ......

Not a half-penny date...

Not an open 3, nor a slender 3...

No indication of a die number...

No, I didn't mean the date. Have a look at the right hand side of the obverse - do you see a very much larger than usual gap between the teeth and the linear circle? I've rotated the image the correct way up, and it's still there. Particularly noticeable by REG.F

Edited November 21, 2014 by Peckris

[Michael-Roo 783]

I'm on my cell phone... so the image is smallish...

however it looks to me to be a normal 3 F-42 ......

Not a half-penny date...

Not an open 3, nor a slender 3...

No indication of a die number...

No, I didn't mean the date. Have a look at the right hand side of the obverse - do you see a very much larger than usual gap between the teeth and the linear circle? I've rotated the image the correct way up, and it's still there. Particularly noticeable by REG.F

Once pointed out it seems very obvious indeed. Quite unusual.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 417]

I'm on my cell phone... so the image is smallish...

however it looks to me to be a normal 3 F-42 ......

Not a half-penny date...

Not an open 3, nor a slender 3...

No indication of a die number...

No, I didn't mean the date. Have a look at the right hand side of the obverse - do you see a very much larger than usual gap between the teeth and the linear circle? I've rotated the image the correct way up, and it's still there. Particularly noticeable by REG.F

I believe it to be an optical illusion, inasmuch as the linear circle is barely visible on most of this coins obverse.

The lettering appears to be the same distance from the border teeth although it seems farther because the linear circle is not apparent between the two (the teeth and the lettering)

[Peckris 579]

I'm on my cell phone... so the image is smallish...

however it looks to me to be a normal 3 F-42 ......

Not a half-penny date...

Not an open 3, nor a slender 3...

No indication of a die number...

No, I didn't mean the date. Have a look at the right hand side of the obverse - do you see a very much larger than usual gap between the teeth and the linear circle? I've rotated the image the correct way up, and it's still there. Particularly noticeable by REG.F

I believe it to be an optical illusion, inasmuch as the linear circle is barely visible on most of this coins obverse.

The lettering appears to be the same distance from the border teeth although it seems farther because the linear circle is not apparent between the two (the teeth and the lettering)

Ah. I thought I could see the linear circle immediately above the legend, but as you say, that may be illusory.

[Greaves 1]

Just.me recommended checking London Coins photos to see the difference between an open 3 and a normal 3. I have done this but I am not sure I can distinguish the two varieties. Does the curved diagonal stroke relate to the serif on the top horizontal bar of the 3, or the downward diagonal arising from the centre of the 3. Thanks in anticipation for any assistance.

[Prax 80]

Simplest thing to do is to take a high res pic and to expand the 3. Draw a straight line on top of the serif extending outwards with the open 3 it will extend outwards without touching the lowing arc of the 3

http://imgur.com/Aprx102,im6ZGZ1

http://imgur.com/Aprx102,im6ZGZ1#1

HTH

[Prax 80]

http://imgur.com/GfYJuvD Here is a normal 3 and the line flipping the lower arc of 3

[Prax 80]

There is a slight difference where the lower half of the coin is slightly bloated but this is difficult to pickup unless you see a few open 3s in the metal

[Greaves 1]

Prax, many thanks. It is now very clear and I can see the difference. Mike