Please consider this petition "Law on the Protection of Cultural H

[ChKy 61]

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns?language=en_GB.utf8

Here a citation from that particular web side

The stipulations of the amendment of the law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage threaten the collecting of cultural objects by private individuals. This law will effect everybody specialized in traditional collecting fields, such as books, stamps, furniture, ceramics, coins, classic cars and paintings. Retroactively, this new law will impose due diligence guidelines that are impossible to follow even for the most meticulous collector. When it comes to a dispute, the law will require, by reversing the burden of proof, the owner of a “cultural good” with a value of at least 2,500 euros to provide proof as to the item’s provenance for the previous 20 years; this affects “archaeological cultural goods” with a value as low as 100 euros.

This is an unrealistic demand which misrepresents most of the objects that are currently traded on the domestic and the international art market in full accordance with the law as being illegal, and will result in a considerable decline in value of the objects in question.

We therefore demand a law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage that observes the following principles:

• No retroactive effect of the law
• No reversal of the burden of proof
• A clear definition of the term “national cultural heritage” and a limit to claims by the state to “national cultural heritage” only
• Free movement, unimpaired by bureaucratic obstacles, of cultural goods which are not classified as “natural cultural heritage”, EU-wide, according to the free movement of goods
• An appropriate participation by the parties representing collectors and dealers in the law-making process

For centuries collectors have protected cultural heritage. Private collecting adds to national efforts and promotes the tradition’s preservation in all its variety, in a way museums alone could never accomplish. Collecting is an immaterial cultural heritage that is currently threatened by the latest drafts of the new German law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage.

In the name of all signers.

[scott 145]

how is that law going to even work.

you buy something that's been in someones loft for years off ebay.. that happens to have something worth that much money in it.

German laws? some things are banned under German law that people collect though. how would those fit in?

[Rob 3,185]

This is a topic which is causing grief in various ways around the world. Ancient coins are one such target of governments, which in the case of a CNG sale in New York, caused its cancellation because the coins were deemed to have been exported illegally (and were in some cases) and so the police dropped by to seize the goods. It focusses the minds of those with valuable artefacts and increases the value of an item with a good provenance.

Some countries ban exports, others regulate them. The situation in this country is a lot better than elsewhere.

[scott 145]

yea, Russian one is strict

https://russianreport.wordpress.com/culture-art/antiques/

Russian coin market is quite hot still.

[ChKy 61]

Here a radio-interview regarding that topic (in German only, sorry)

http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/online-petition-kunsthaendler-wehren-sich-gegen.691.de.html?dram:article_id=326299

[azda 981]

I noticed in the description of what's happening in Germany that it states "when it comes to a dispute" so I'm assuming the 20 year provenance comes into play when someone lays claim to a

Coin or hoard of coins?

I signed this last night but it's actually the first time i've heard of this here, must keep up to date with it in the upcoming months. I wonder if they started this due to the guy in Munich who had paintings from the Nazi era which were found in his basement in Schwabing and a few heads laid claim to them being taken from relatives when Hitler was siezing things like this during the war?

Edited July 25, 2015 by azda

[ChKy 61]

Many thanks for your post. Most likely that the case of Gurlitt had an impact on this.

Still that law proposal will destroy collecting of common people, serving particular interests of fundamentalist archaeologists. I doubt that it would help to rescue cultural heritage and more important to enhance public interest in cultural heritage.

Edited July 25, 2015 by ChKy

[ChKy 61]

Yet there are 4,805 supporters. Please sign that petition, let other people now, distribute that petition throughout social media network and other collectors forums (eg books, stamps, ceramics, gramophone records, ect)

Here the link once again:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns

[TimMedhurst 1]

We need to keep on supporting this petition and spreading the word. What could happen in one country could spread to another. It would be an absolute travesty.

Hope all are well!

[Rob 3,185]

Is the German parliament obliged to respond to a 120,000 name petition that is signed by a large number of non-Germans, or does it require 120K natives?

[ChKy 61]

Is the German parliament obliged to respond to a 120,000 name petition that is signed by a large number of non-Germans, or does it require 120K natives?

It will be articulated to the members of parliament in any case. But the 120,000 must be residents of Germany in order to get a statement from the parliamentarians. Regardless to that every vote coming from outside enhances the political weight as well. This lets our parliament and our society know that people from all over the world are monitoring there decisions.

The more votes are collected, the more interesting it is for newspapers & magazines to make that problem public. Until now the commision tried to develop the law "under the public radar". The main issue is, that we have to make this petition public all over the globe and activate as many collectors as possible (from various collecting fields, not coins only as stated out before)...

We need to keep on supporting this petition and spreading the word. What could happen in one country could spread to another. It would be an absolute travesty.

Hope all are well!

This exactly is what I am trying to say. Prevent other governments of western countries in preparing similar plans

[ChKy 61]

Taken from a German coin forum: http://www.numismatikforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=52977&start=420

member raeticus

Hier eine Erklärung der Gesetzesnovelle auf einem Englischen Forum (in English :-)

Dear List,

many good questions asked by many of you. Let me take the time to try to answer at least some:

BACKGROUND OF THE DRAFT:
1) the draft of the new legislation was promised by the cultural minister to be posted on her website multiple times but was only given as a file.

That file (in German) is available to some including the German press, but you cannot find it on the web. A previous version with 100 pages of commentaries to the fellow ministers of the German governement by the author had also leaked about 2 weeks before. Not much difference between the two drafts except in the National Cultural Heritage section they took out a claues that would have allowed searching private homes for cultural objects of National importance.

We need to understand that it is a document in the works, the final proposal will be available after endorsement by Merkel's cabinet in 3-4 weeks. Also some practical aspects are not part of the draft law but will be issued later in so called "Rechtsbestimmungen" (also called "Ermächtigungsverordnungen") which are in layman terms "sub-laws", not under control of Parliament but issued by the minister directly, a somewhat strange non-democratic feature of German law, but as I was told not uncommen. For example the exact value and age bounderies per cultural object category are going to be in these.

THE LAW AND ITS MECHANICS:
2) The law covers multiple aspects which makes it complex:
A) Protection of German National culture;
Import and Export permits also within the European Union;
C) Collector and Dealer obligations;
D) Return of other countries cultural heritage illegally in Germany
E) Prevention of Illegal excavations in Germany

A) GERMAN NATIONAL CULTURAL HERITAGE:
The press mainly covers A), where the typical cultural category reported on is paintings, and indeed it seems the age would be 70 years and above a value of 300.000 (stated by the minister, such details is not in the draft but would be in the Rechtsverordnung. Major negative consequences for collectors as they will be cut off from the world market in case they ever want to sell their object, as export from Germany for such objects is forbidden. If one moves inbetween German states the object has to be reported to the new state, and objects must not be damaged or changed (penalities are listed for noncompliance).

IMPORT AND EXPORT PERMITS (for NON HERITAGE OBJECTS):
This is completely new. So far only an export licence to outside of the EU was needed (issued by the last EU country the object left the EU common market from). Under the old law there was free trade within the European Union from a German standpoint.
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN CONCEPT:
Main new concept of the new law is that - besides now requiring many 100.000 additional permits without staff being available to execute it - the law introduces the concept that to be legally allowed to enter Germany the object needs an 'Exit' permit of the "country of origin". NOT the trade country or the last country it was collected, but the country of origin, whatever that may be. Example Roman objects - What is it ? Example a Picasso, is it Spanish ? Is it French ? Is itSwiss as the last collector for 50 years was Swiss ? Not English despite the dealer it was bought from was in London.
If no adequate documentation is given at entry the object can be confiscated straight away.
Dito for export from Germany to any other country.
VALUE AND AGE LIMITS:
The value cut off for example for archaelogical objects above 100 years of age is expected to be from value zero (ie regardless of value), and coins as potentially archaological objects are affected also. For example for oldtimer cars the age limit is 75 years with a value of 50.000€. Drawings have a value limit of 15.000€. Fossils are also included, stamps, books, manuscripts, antique furniture, etc. All with different value and age cutoffs.
TREATY RELATED AGE CUTOFFs:
In addition there are time cutoffs for the need of this import permit INTO Germany that are linked to certain treaty dates: For EU countries the omport permit requirement relate to objects that if their have notbeen proven to have left their country of origin before 31. Dec 1992, and for UNESCO signatories before 26. April 2007
No such limits for the export licence to go OUTSIDE of Germany


C) OBLIGATIONS BEFORE TRADING CULTURAL OBJECTS ('Sorgfaltspflichten bei in Verkehrbringen')
ANYBODY:
Any collector or dealer has to prove before selling or trading a cultural object that the object was not lost, stolen, illegally imported or illegally exacavated. If an object was bought with cash money, or the price seemed too low, or no expert was present, it is assumed doubtful. If the object is still traded, prison up to 3 years is foreseen, more for multiple offenses or gang related activities. It is open HOW one could prove the above, especially retrospectively and for every object as there is no lower value limit. A beer mug on a flea market sold by a part time dealer would be already affected
DEALERS ('gewerblich' includes in Germany private individuals who sell objects multiple times over a year'):
besides the obligation for anybody above, dealers have to keep record of the name and address of the seller to them, and the buyer from them incl the prices, and document the identity of the object incl an image. the yhave to store this 30 years, and any interested buyer can request the documentation incl the identities of previous owners of the object. If not done the dealer faces up to 3-5 years prison and up to 100.000 Euros penalty (10 years if a gang activity, ie multiple dealers together)

IF the object is an archaeological object and valued above 100Euros the dealer has to do in addition extensive provenance searches outlined in the draft.
IF the object is other the limit is 2500Euros for this.
IF the archaeological object has been in the family, proven for more than 20 years, the limit is not 100Euros but also 2500 Euros.
IF the object is a potential object from Syria or IRAQ as identified by ICOM red lists (for example it lists all Roman coins with the letters SC), there is no lower limit, any objects needs a provenance search.

D) REPATRIATION TO COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN:
Essentially the law requires the collector to prove the object has left the country of origin before 31.Dec 1992 for EU members or 26.April 2007 for UNESCO signatories to be safe from requests. All other objects can be requested by a country making a claim, under German courts, but using the cultural protection law of that country of origin (ie Foreign law becomes the main driver within Germany)

E) ILLEGAL EXACAVATIONS WITHIN GERMANY:
Up to 3 years of prison for illegal excavations within Germany (so far this was not seen as a crime that would trigger prison sentences)

DISCLAIMER: NOTE PLEASE I AM NOT A LAWYER, THERE MAY BE MISINTERPRETATIONS, THE DRAFT IS NOT THE FINAL LAW, AND SOME DETAILS ARE UNKNOWN UNTIL THE 'RECHTSVERORDNUNGEN' ARE ISSUED

[ChKy 61]

Dear fellow collectors! You can do me a favour. Please add following text into your ebay item descriptions:

Attention fellow collectors!
If you want to continue to collect coins, then please be sure to join!

THE MATTER IS URGENT!!!

Please read and sign the online petition and share the link!!!
Simply copy the link, put it into your browser and give your voice, it is even possible to remain anonymous!
THANKS A LOT!

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns

Many thanks

[ChKy 61]

the link is shortend in the post. Please keep in mind to use the full internet address and please do not insert it as a link into the auction. The ebay member has to copy the link and to paste it into the browser

[TomGoodheart 407]

Thanks Christof. To be honest, I'm not sure how workable the whole thing might be.

I can't see artists like Georg Baselitz being too pleased if it becomes impossible to sell their work on the international market.

I can't see the German government spending money on administrating a process that could involve thousands of small sales of artefacts or coins on ebay.de The British Portable Antiquities scheme is one of the better initiatives for recording the movement of such items but struggles to be funded amongst the arguments as to who should run it and the ever increasing workload ...

How will they deal with the work of artist like Kurt Schwitters or Max Beckmann, undoubtedly important German artists but who moved and worked abroad for some years?

As for coins, well what about Roman coins, struck within the Roman Empire before the current borders or German nation existed? Are they Italian? How do you distinguish those made for the German parts of Gaul from the Belgian or French?

While I quite understand the desire to protect and retain important historical and cultural artefacts I honestly think there are some archaeologists and museum staff who would prefer if it all to remain buried or in the case of art, locked up in the basements of museums safe from those awful people who want to look at or, worse still, handle such things.

.